Survival Firearms - Lever Action Guns for the Collapse

UrbanSurvivalSkills.com received this e-mail comment: ……..”I have been discussing most of the topics covered here with friends in different parts of the country and we have come up with very similar solutions. One thing we decided was that a lever gun in 44mag or 357mag would be better than anything magazine fed. You can top up a lever gun at any pause and there are no mags feed lips to damage. As most contact ranges would be 100yds or less these calibers are more than adequate. If the range is greater, stay hidden!! Your comments. P.”

UrbanMan’s comments: I have no problem with anyone’s choice of survival firearms, as the first rule is to have a gun and remember one is none, two is one. People who tend to have a limited number of guns just may be more proficient with them then those of us with an arsenal!

If you have a lever gun, then it most probably has a tubular magazine. Yes easy to top off, but slow to load,…limited to certain bullet types so sympathetic detonation from bullet nose to cartridge primer does not occur while loaded in the tubular magazine, and, ……also limited to number of rounds that you can carry and if you always keep it fully loaded, then you face a degraded spring strength.

I own a couple lever guns. A great point about levers is that they are robust enough to take the abuse. But I’ll choose my M-4 most every time over a lever. However, I know a gent (not in my survival group) who owns just a couple guns: a Browning lever in .44 magnum; a S&W Model 29 in .44 magnum; a double barrel 12 gauge shotgun and maybe a .22 LR rifle. He used to have an old Colt NM M1911 in .45 ACP to shoot in competition, but he no longer has that (he sold it to me). I know he has a lot of ammunition for each and is very capable with any of these guns, despite his age in the mid 60’s. He believes that there will be a collapse, but say’s he thinks he is adequately armed.

As far as magazines go, I have three different brands for my M-4’s: standard GI mags, mostly 20 rounders; 20 and 30 round P-Magazines, and even a few H&K steel magazines. I rarely have problems with the magazines and if I do and am sure of it, I’ll toss it from my inventory. So I would think that economics and familiarization would be better reason to stick to a lever gun.

A friend of mine from the SW Border area told me, about a year ago if I remember right, that he went into a gun shop to buy some .45-70 ammunition for a competition only to find out that the store had none because a old man came through a few days earlier and bought up all they had,…hundreds of dollars worth. The store said the old man was touring the region buying up all the .45-70 he could find. I would think that this gent probably is pretty high on his .45-70 be it a lever gun or a sharps, and was obviously preparing for a collapse and basing his security/protection needs on what is seemingly an antiquated gun.

I like your idea at ranges greater than 100 yards, then hide! I think smart people don’t look for fights, especially in an environment of degraded medical care. Fight when you have to and when you have the advantage…e.g..it if is a fair fight, then you did something wrong. Keep the principle of ambushes foremost in your mind: Surprise, Coordinated Field of Fire, Violence of Action, Speed and Security.

I would not feel particularly under gunned using a lever action, but I would damn sure try to use the new Hornady LeveRevolution ammunition which gives a 160 grain bullet in a .30-30 case, near .308 performance. Good luck with your lever guns and stay safe.

Urban Survival Weapons - Cross Bow versus another Survival Firearms

Reader Question: I have several handguns, most notably a .44 magnum Ruger Redhawk and a 9mm Ruger. My main SHTF gun is a Hungarian AK. I think I am pretty well covered for firearms. I am thinking on acquiring a cross bow for several reasons. It is quiet, I can use it for hunting and I can make my own arrows for it. I am interested if you or anyone else has any experience in cross bows for survival situations and if it makes sense to put a scope on it?

UrbanMan replies: I would consider the cross bow a very inadequate survival or defensive weapon. The many movies that depict a silent sentry removal using a cross bow are fantasy. I never saw them in our inventory or anyone else's. They are inaccurate at all but short ranges and the "arrow", actually called a bolt, is highly affected by the wind, not to mention any vegetation between you and the target. The effective range for a highly skilled archer would be around 20 yards in my opinion,..... you miss or need an additional bolt into your target, then re-loading time will make that second shot immaterial. And since the cross bolt head or broadhead is much bigger that a bullet and going much slower, this means a much higher chance of deflecting off of bone at anything other than a perpendicular angle to the target. I would forget about the cross bow.

You do not mention if you own a 12 gauge shotgun. Or a .22 LR rifle. I would consider these much, much more important for a Survival Firearms battery. Both are common calibers; have a much better range; and, can be more effectively used for hunting. Plus there is nothing like a 12 gauge shotgun for defensive purposes at short ranges.

If the AKM, a good and reliable weapon, is your primary survival firearm, then I would also consider acquiring a few of the new polymer AK magazines, from U.S. P.A.L.M. that I wrote about in a previous post. I have tested these magazines and they are excellent. They have a self leveling follower; are steel lined around the feed lips; and have several holes in the follower where dirt and debris can be shook out of the magazine as you cannot disassemble these magazines. This company also makes a P-Mag type magazine for M-4 (AR type .223 rifles) but I have not had a chance to test it yet.

A good crossbow cost several hundred dollars,...you should use this money for a 12 gauge shotgun or .22 LR firearm, preferable a rifle. In fact, for the $400 I saw on some Crossbow prices, you could get both.

Survival Firearms - AK-47/AKM Accessories

For those of you with Kalashnikov's (AK-47 or AKM variants), US P.A.L.M. which is a division of SGC Global Industries is producing some very good enhancements and accessories.

Visit U.S. P.A.L.M. at http://www.us-palm.com/


One of U.S. P.A.L.M.'s newest products is a polymer 30 round AK Magazine, called the AK30.



AK30

This new 30 round magazine fits all AK-47 rifles that use detachable double-stack magazines. The AK30 is constructed of proprietary aerospace polymers developed by Tango Down. The AK30 sets itself apart from other polymer magazines with its purpose-built design and multiple unique features:

No Floor Plate. By eliminating the removable floor plate and bonding the body and end-cap produces a very strong magazine. There is a semi-floating follower that is slotted to allow for easy magazine cleaning. Just dunk the magazine in hot soapy water, rinse and invert to drain. Dry contamination easily flows free through the vented follower design.

Magazine Spring. The AK30 features a chromium-silicon spring that is heat treated, stress relieved and US Mil Spec corrosion resistant coated. Life expectancy for this spring is 100,000+ cycles.

Internal stainless cage. The locking surfaces are reinforced by a stainless steel cage that has been molded into the entire top of the magazine to further ensure reliability for years of trouble free service.

External. This magazine has aggressive ridges on the front and rear allow a positive purchase when seating the AK30 into the rifle. The deep waffle pattern on the magazine sides assist in rapid extraction from magazine pouches, and positive manipulation.

Upon shooting several magazines, we discerned no discernible wear on the surfaces bearing on the magazine. Although we love P-Mag's for our M-4's, we cannot say the same about them.


AK ATTACK RACK

U.S. P.A.L.M. also makes an AK Assault Chest Rig, called the AK Attack Rack.  This ain;t your momma's chest rig,......we have not got our hands on this yet, but appears to be worth looking at for anyone who owns an AK or AKM and has a hard time finding a rig for their 30 round magazines.

Urban Survival Firearms - Is Weapons and Ammunition Standardization a Good Thing?

UrbanSurvivalSkills.com received an e-mail question from someone with the call sign Rucksack 42: "UrbanSurvivalguy, would like your opinion of a group standardizing weapons and ammo. My group decided that everyone needed an AR. I was pushing for an M1A1 as the standard gun, but the group voted me down. No sweat, I also have an AR built as a long range varmint gun. One of the guys in the group has a Mini-14 and since it’s in .223 everybody said he was cool. I am the most knowledgeable in the group about guns and shooting as well as the only war veteran ( Afghanistan , 2 tours as an 11B…that’s an Infantryman). I am suggesting a standard round for everyone to buy a minimum amount of. My thinking is that if everyone has different ammunition and zero’ed for that ammunition, that different ammunition will change accuracy if used in other guns. What do you think would be the best .223 round to stock as standard?” Same question on handguns. I have three 9mm and some of the guys don’t own a handgun. One gun says no matter what he is going to carry his .41 magnum." /

UrbanMan replies: Rucksack, great questions. As you know the first rule of a gun fight is to have a gun. Second rule is now how to use it effectively. Another fact is survival is a team sport and you all are doing the right things raising these questions, thinking of standardization and such.

You are right about ammunition standardization. But the great thing about the AR platforms is that there are many different bullet configurations to pick appropriately for the mission,..or rather the intended target. The most prolific bullet weight is the 55 grain FMJ and this is the “all around” round. I would suggest this round, but have a stock of the military 62 grain steel core penetrator (SS109 bullet) for addressing vehicle threats or threats in body armor. Tracers may be handy as well. There are many more as well. So if I had to make one recommendation I would say the 55 grain FMJ and the 62 grain SS109. Zero with the 55 grain and know the different with the other. A minimum amount would be 1,000 rds per gun, although I stock well more than that for my AR’s, but considerable less for my odd guns (bolts, levers, etc.)

As far as accuracy is concerned, less different bullet weights and manufacture will change accuracy. But maybe not enough for your more in-experienced shooters to even determine. Still standardization a good idea.

Same answer for handguns….standardization a good thing, but having a handgun, and a good supply of ammunition on hand, more important. I answered another Urban Survival Group who made handguns in 9mm a requirements and then Survival Group members had their choice of a rifle (any caliber) or shotgun (12 gauge). They had reached their pain threshold and were not willing to either spend more money or make stricter requirements. But they are much better off than a lot of people, as they understood Survival is a Team Sport, and at least they thought about and considered some sort of minimum requirement.

Hey, don’t forget about the .22 either! And my last comment is that various rifles and handguns in odd or non-group standard calibers can be a good thing as it gives you a wider ability to barter for ammunition, use ammunition you “find” and so on.

Good luck Rucksack. By the way, I know what an 11B is,..I was one among other MOS’es. And thank you for your service to this country…I hope you don't think it was for naught – cause it wasn’t!

Urban Survival Firearms - Primary Survival Handguns

UrbanSurvivalSkills.com received a question on handguns suitable for use as a primary Survival handgun. Jaime wrote….”I am in a group that is pretty squared away. We are following Rawles from survival blog (note: www.survivalblog.com) and read the book Patriots, probably several times each. Each of us in our Survival team bought M4 carbines and tactical gear in OD Green. We are now determining what uniforms to buy and most important what handgun. We have agreed that the handgun is going to be an H&K in .40 caliber S&W. My question is do you have any comments on the H&K handguns in generally, and what model would you pick as a primary handgun for a Survival Team?”

UrbanMan replies: Jaime, good for you using Rawles’ examples and guidance for Survival planning,…..equally good that you recognize that Survival is a team sport and you have organized a group. Commonality on equipment is a good idea. You didn’t ask about the uniforms, but I am inclined to comment on that. Durable field uniforms such as military fatigues in the MARPAT (US Marine pattern), Army ACU camouflage pattern and such, are a good idea, but also a good idea is to have durable clothing that you can wear and not give you the para-military look.

5.11 makes a great tactical pant in a solid color and in fact brown or tan jeans from Wrangler also are durable and will not make you standout as a para-military type group in siituations that would require blending in or not looking so "threatening". Like heading to the grocery store or other public places before there is a total collapse,..if in fact, that is what happens. Regular jeans do not have the pockets, we call them bells and whistles, like the 5.11 or the military fatigue pants have – one drawback.

As far as the H&K handgun is concerned. I prefer other brands, but if you are set on an H&K handgun I think the P2000 is the clear winner. Note the photograph above, from top to bottom: P2000SK, USP-C and P2000.

Other choices are the P2000SK which is slightly smaller in barrel length, grip length and magazine capacity....like comparing a Glock 17 to a Glock 19. The older USP-C can be more easily found in a used configuration and all are good, durable guns. I just don’t like the ergometrics on the USP-C or the bigger USP, nor the trigger on any H&K.

The USP-C and P2000 uses the same magazine whereas the P2000SK uses a shorter magazine. USP-C and P2000 magazines will work in the P2000SK, just extend out alittle further, but P2000SK magazines will not lock in an USP-C or P2000.

Another advantage of the P2000 is that the grip is adjustable through a series of different sized backstraps. Plus I like the grip ergometrics of the P2000 much better than the USP-C.

Be aware that these handguns are more expensive than other models from different makers such as the Glock series of handguns or the Smith and Wesson M&P semi-automatics. Good luck.

Survival Firearms - A Basic Need Under Attack

The fundamentals for Surviving a collapse, be it an economic collapse, terrorist or nation-state nuclear attack or even a pandemic, are basically having Food, Shelter, Water and Protection. I know, I know,….. this doesn’t begin to describe the preparation and planning it takes to give any given a group a good chance of surviving chaos. But we do know that a gaping hole in any of these basic Survival areas will doom you.

Enter the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE) who are attempting to get authority, not previously existing, that will at least dampen our ability to purchase firearms to fill the Protection basics of Survival preparedness.

The Legislative Alert I received from the National rifle Association is as follows:

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives has proposed that it be given emergency authority for six months, beginning January 5, to require about 8,500 firearms dealers along the border with Mexico “to alert authorities when they sell within five consecutive business days two or more semiautomatic rifles greater than .22 caliber with detachable magazines.” A Washington Post story reporting on the BATFE proposal described that definition as being applicable to “so-called assault weapons,” but it would also apply to many rifles that have never been labeled with that term.

The reporting requirement will apparently be imposed under the “authority” the BATFE has used in the past to demand reporting of other types of transactions from certain limited groups of dealers over the past 10 years, but the new proposal is far broader than any previous use of this authority. Of course, there's no law today that prevents dealers from reporting suspicious transactions (or attempted transactions) to the BATFE, and dealers often do so. The BATFE is also free to inspect dealers' sales records—either for annual compliance inspections or during a criminal investigation.

UrbanMan’s comment: I cannot help but see this as an invasive inroad to gun owners rights and therefore our ability to protect ourselves. The conventional wisdom that the Mexican cartels are armed from American gun shops is a lie.

Additionally, on Sunday, December 17, 2010, Supreme Court Justice Stephen Breyer reminded Americans why it is important to vote for a president whose nominees to the court will likely be faithful to the Constitution, to vote for U.S. senators who will reject nominees who likely will not be faithful, and to vote for federal and state legislators who can check and balance justices like Stephen Breyer who don't believe the Second Amendment protects any meaningful right.

On Sunday, during an interview with Chris Wallace on “Fox News Sunday,” Clinton nominee Breyer, who dissented from the Supreme Court's decisions in District of Columbia v. Heller (2008) and McDonald v. Chicago (2010), claimed that the role of the court is to interpret the Constitution flexibly, in light of ever-changing circumstances. Breyer argues that the court should give consideration not to the Constitution’s “words,” but to the “values” that the Framers had in mind. Fox News’ article on the interview can be viewed here.

The Framers’ “values,” Breyer suggested, would allow a total ban on handguns in Washington, D.C. “It’s not a matter of policy, it’s a matter of what those Framers [of the Bill of Rights] intended,” he said.

What Second Amendment author James Madison intended, Breyer said, was only to prevent Congress from nationalizing state militias. That, of course, is not what Breyer said in his dissent in the Heller case. Then, Breyer said that the amendment was intended to prohibit Congress from disarming state militias.

Regardless of what Breyer was trying to sell on Sunday, Wallace didn’t seem to be buying it. Pointing out the plain language of the amendment’s “keep and bear arms” clause, Wallace asked Breyer whether, in ignoring those words, he was assuming the role of politician or policy-maker, rather than that of a judge.

Breyer grinned smugly, said “no,” and sarcastically asked whether the amendment should be interpreted to allow the ownership of machine guns and torpedoes, as well as handguns. Wallace countered that at the very least, the amendment “certainly didn’t provide for a ban on all handguns, as we have here in Washington, D.C.” To that, Breyer, still grinning, asked Wallace, “Are you a sportsman? Do you like to shoot pistols at targets? Well, get on the subway and go to Maryland.”

Realizing that Madison and the other Framers surely did not intend for the Second Amendment to mean one thing in Maryland and another in D.C., Wallace pointed out that allowing a ban on handguns in D.C. while not allowing it in Maryland would be “a policy issue, not a constitutional issue.” Breyer changed the subject.

UrbanMan’s comment: The liberal, left wing side of American politics has no given up; the fight to restrict American gun owning rights. My suggestion is to not only get into the fight by letting your Congressman and Senators know how you want them to vote, but you ought to consider getting the firearms you need now, before something happens to reduce the availability.

Urban Survival Firearms - Weapons Training from Viking Tactics

We talk a lot about the necessary items for survival: food, shelter, packing Bug Out Bags, developing a bug out plan, procuring survival equipment/gear and of course, alot of talk goes into survival firearms. What we don't talk very much about is the training required to be proficient in using firearms, or weapons if you prefer.

People have asked me to give them an idea on how skilled they need to be. I really hesitate to address this. Imagine if I wrote a series of skill standards, maybe something to the effect "the Survivalist must be able to load a magazine, charge the weapon and engage four targets with one round, at one each target at ranges of 25 yards, 50 yards, 75 yards and 100 yards, in 10 seconds keeping all his rounds on target". Well the difficultly in establishing a training and performance standard while considering all different types of firearms and the different capabilities and restrictions of the shooters would be immense.

However, I would suggest that everyone develop and increase their proficiency as much as their resources (time and money) allow. Attendance at any number of shooting schools is a great place to start. Joining gun clubs and competing in many diverse firearms competitions from International Practical Shooting Confederation (IPSC), to the International Defensive Pistol Association (IDPA), to Rimfire and Centerfire Bullseye competition, maybe Metallic Silhouette shooting or any number of other shooting disciplines are also an excellent place to learn and grow your skills.

Some people learn by seeing what is possible than training to replicate that skill. The below video is from Viking Tactics. I won't go into deal on the background of Kyle Lamb, owner of Viking Tactics, but suffice it to say he is probably the best in the world,...yes, the best in the world at what he does.
It is almost impossible to get a slot in one of his classes,...but you can try,..the next best thing is to look at his videos and see what is possible.



Additional videos can be viewed from Kyle's You Tube channel:

The book, "Green Eyes and Black Rifles", is a classic and needs to be in everyone's library even if you do not own an AR.

Survival Firearms - Brownell's Annual Black Rifle Friday

Brownells is Back In Black! Their Black Rifle Friday Event was such a huge hit last year, they decided to come back for another go around. This time, Brownell's is upping the ante with even MORE products on markdown. Customers can not only save site wide, but at 12:00am on Black Friday, they can expect to see a surprise promotion to be announced at that time!

I have several M-4 carbines and probably 30 to 35 magazines per gun, as well as spare parts kits. I have had most of these for years, but from time to time add accessories. The last accessories I bought, about 3 years ago, were armorer tools. Maybe I will have a cottage industry after the collapse repairing everyone else's AR's.

The exclusive savings run through midnight, on "Cyber-Monday", November 29.

Survival Chronicles of Jim- Chapter 18

Back again. I haven't been as busy these past weeks as I'd like to have been. It seems that I have been one a long road...and there is no end in site.

Most of your preppers out there would have to admit that there really is no end in sight in getting prepared for TEOTWAWKI. There is always something to do, something to buy and ALWAYS another idea or tip out there.

When I start to get a little anxiety over the latest economic news I try to rationalize that I am much better off than I was nine months ago. At least I have a re-location plan, a Survival Bug Out Bag, some stored food - both the long term storage and more short term food,.....I have a growing cache near the cabin. I have some Silver coins (for their silver melt value) as well as some Silver bullion in the form of one ounce rounds. I have a Survival firearms battery of a 12 gauge shotgun, a .22 LR pistol and a Mosin-Nagant rifle. I also have a .22 LR up at the cabin in cache.

Again, haven't been as busy as I'd like. Still considering an AR type M-4 rifle or something similar. Urban Man also had me look at Ruger Mini-14's which I really like but they are only about $250-$300 cheaper than an M-4. Urban Man says the two disadvantages with the Ruger Mini-14, compared to the AR rifles, are the lack of magazine compatibility with the millions of M-4 and available magazines, and, the inherent inaccuracy versus the M-4. I'm not too concerned about the accuracy thing since I am not really a shooter, but I do intend to get better and maybe attend a shooting school.

These past weeks I did however get some 3/4 inch plywood and two by fours cut for the windows of my house. Found a couple picnic bench tables at a flea market which will form the basis of shooting platforms from my small basement windows.

I also picked up six rolls of duct tape, a roll of 3 mil black and clear plastic sheeting and some small hand tools: I bought a folding metric and standard allen wrench set and some small open/box wrenches; a hammer and several boxes of nails from 8D to 16D; plus a hacksaw and small hand rip saw.

This coming week I am supposed to go with Urban Man to the range and shoot my shotgun and handgun some more - so that means more ammunition. At the last couple range sessions Urban Man has been letting me shoot several handguns to see what I may be interested in. These include: a Glock 19 in 9mm; a Glock 22 in .40 S&W; a Smith and Wesson M&P in 9mm; two H&K handguns - a USP-C and a P2000 both in .40 S&W; and, a Smith and Wesson 586 .357 Magnum revolver.

Haven't heard from Neomi, probably better since she told me about having to include her mother and sister and children into any Survival plan she is a part of. Still I have to be prepared for people who show up at my place at the beginning or into a economic or other collapse asking for refuge. And undoubtedly Neomi and her relatives would be among the first, unless she gets a boyfriend first, ha ha.

Anyway, I think I am getting better, how about you?

Urban Survival Skills - Firearms Proficiency

UrbanSurvivalSkills.com received a question from a reader asking about "what level of training and what of skills I would recommend in order to make someone proficient in a given rifle and therefore be a contributing member of a Survival Group."

Timely enough, I received an article, by Jeffrey Wall, Staff Sergeant, California Army National Guard, that was published in Small Wars Journal, that related to the current state of training and proficiency in the U.S. Army on small arms, including rifles, carbines, pistols and machineguns, but really focused on the primary weapon which is the M-4 rifle, or carbine if you want to get technical.

I would advise all to go to Small Wars Journal and read the entire article, very interesting with the historical connections. In fact, you may decide to get a subscription. I am posting some of Wall's article as it is pertinent to the question I received about what level of training does one have to have to be proficient in a firearm. My comments in the article are in Italics.

Afghanistan has become a rifleman’s war.

Because we are fighting a counterinsurgency campaign against a tribal warrior society we have and increasingly continued to limit the use of supporting arms (machineguns, indirect fire such as mortars and artillery, and Close Air Support).

The result is that we must rely more and more on our riflemen to engage and defeat the enemy. We know that 52% of the fights in Afghanistan begin at 500 meters and go out from there. The problem is that we don’t teach soldiers to engage with their rifles at those ranges any more. The Army gave up teaching marksmanship as a primary Soldier skill in 1958.

Vietnam tended to reinforce the misconception of rifle marksmanship being of secondary importance as much of the fighting there was at close range – either because of the thick vegetation and/or because the enemy grabbed us by the belt buckle and engaged at such close ranges that we could not bring our supporting arms to bear.

In either case, near or far, we now must rely on our riflemen to do the work. The trouble is they are not trained for it.

Army standards are to – ideally - train a rifleman going to war with 58 rounds of ammunition – 18 to zero and 40 to qualify on the “Pop up Target Range”.....again, that's 58 rounds.

What is not trained when Soldiers are sent to war after having fired only 58 rounds? Long range marksmanship, range estimation, the effects of wind and gravity on trajectory, short range marksmanship, gun handling skills such as rapid magazine changes and enough practice to cement these skills. ( I would include malfunction clearing, transitioning from rifle to handgun, and shooting from disadvantaged positions are necessary skills as well)

So we are sending Americans off to war with minimal rifle marksmanship training to engage an enemy on his turf with inadequate skills. Consider that the pop up target qualification course is all fired with a battle sight zero out to 300 meters. No training in reading the wind is given, no formulistic method is taught for wind estimation or how to calculate a wind adjustment even though the rifle itself has a half a minute of angle windage adjustment capability. Worse still is that many Soldiers don’t even attempt to shoot the 300 meter targets preferring to save those rounds to ensure a hit on the closer range targets. They have no idea what adjustments need to go on their rear sights to engage at 400, 500 or 600 meters. What we have then are soldiers whose effective engagement range capability is 200 to 225 meters.

Presumably you see the problem - the disconnect if you will - between the reality of the war in which we are engaged and our training regimen.

The author goes on to explain the Squad Designated Marksman (SDM) concept where every infantry squad has a better trained and equipped soldier capable of engaging targets with precision at longer ranges. The SDM necessarily has an optic equipped rifle. Furthermore he makes the case of spending the money for the necessary ammunition for training, and in his view, 3,000 rounds to train all Soldiers to engage targets, proficiently, from 0 to 500 yards.

The author breaks down the ammunition expended at each range: 1200 rounds - 0 to 100 yards (the author says... "this is the range zone where the pucker factor is greatest; where the shooting skills must be instinctive, i.e. based on“muscle memory”);

1500 rounds to shoot known distance range to 600 yards and an unknown distance range to at least 700 yards; and, 300 rounds - 100 to 300 yards [this is really the easy distance, little gun handling under pressure is required and little adjustment for wind and gravity are needed.

Training/shooting at night, on moving targets (day and night) and using artificial illumination tools such as white light flashlights and/or IR scopes and IR non-visible lasers must be included. At least a rudimentary knowledge of reading winds and applying corrections should be considered.

The Survival Group should consider having at least some of their people equipped with a magnified scope, not only to scope for effectively at longer ranges, but to use the magnified scope as an observation tool.

As far as specifically answering my reader's question, which is a very good question, I prefer not to talk about amounts of ammunition needed to achieve a certain skill level,...it may take hundreds of rounds for someone and tens of thousands of rounds for some else. Resources, which mean time and money, will always restrict training. A smart trainer will find ways to mitigate these restrictions.

Anyone relying on a rifle to protect himself/herself and others should be able to accomplish the following tasks:

Disassemble, clean and re-assemble the rifle; load and fire the rifle applying the seven fundamentals of shooting (stance or position, grip, sight alignment, sight picture, trigger control, breathing and follow through);

Be able to zero the rifle at 25 yards placing three rounds at the point of aim in about a dime sized group;

Shoot accurately,..I think a fair measure of accuracy for a novice shooter would being able to shoot and hit a 8 x 11 inch target up to 200 yards using iron sights with a rifle; as the shooter starts drilling center mass of his target, start doing it faster. As the shooter starts shooting inaccurately, then slow down. Speed is built through a constant repetition of this cycle.

Note: I say a 8x11 target, since a piece of typing paper is 8.5 inches by 11 inches and this replicates the vital chest area of a human. Therefore, you always have access to low cost targets. Then your standard is keeping your shots on this paper at all distances.

The shooter should be able to reload the firearm (magazine exchange, aka tactical re-load, and emergency re-load, aka from a empty weapon)...in order words, reload and get back into the fight.

Correct stoppages and malfunctions and get back into the fight. Training using blank rounds or empty cases in a magazine will force a shooter to confront and remedy stoppages.

This above skill sets are pretty minimal and do not include applied tactics such as shooting utilizing cover and shooting from degraded positions. Not do they consider the high stress environment the Survival shooter will be in. Some physical stress can be replicated and incorporated with exercise such as running, pushups and other physically demanding exercise before and during firearms training. You can incorporate "dry fire" training as well to help build muscle memory and confidence in your fellow Survival Group members. If you consider the environment you live in and will be surviving in, and consider the possible threats you will face, then apply that to realistic training, I think you'll be successful. Hope I answered your question well enough.

Urban Survival Preparation - Firearms and Food suggestions for a Reader

UrbanSurvivalSkills.com received a comment on the post Urban Survival Planning - Lessons Learned from Katrina,…." Anonymous said…. Urban, I have started a Survival Group with my friends. Most of us have handguns and a few rifles, but have agreed to spend $1000 each on a standard rifle and $250 each on some long storage food. Can you give us some ideas on what we should be looking at for a standard gun and even food?”

Urbanman replies: On the standard rifle issue. Standardization is good for commonality of ammunition, magazines, parts and training. There is something to be said for having a wide range of calibers to ensure ammunition can be found and/or bartered for, but I would prefer to stock enough from the get go, otherwise you could be at someone’s mercy.

I suspect that the $1000 agreed upon per person was to include all required accessories including load bearing kit, extra mags, cleaning kits, etc. If that is the case, a $1000 threshold makes it difficult to purchase AR type rifles for all including the necessary magazines. However, I’m going to assume that you all can save enough money for the next couple of months to purchase these and the $1000 is going only for a rifle nothing more. In that case the hands down winner would be an AR type rifle in the .223 Remington (also known as the 5.56x45mm) cartridge. I’m sure you can find various manufacturers’ copies of the M-4 carbine for under $1000. If your local gunshop cannot get them for that price, check of Gun Broker who can ship them to your gun shop and they should handle that the required transaction for a nominal fee, probably around $25 per gun.

I also saw where Cheaper than Dirt is offering various M-4 type clones for around $830 which would leave some room for purchasing some kit.

Ruger Mini-14’s are a good rifle. The sights are not as good as the AR types, but still serviceable. They take different magazines than the AR type of rifle but still shoot the .223 Remington and are reliable. These probably run around $650 or so.

As far as long duration food stocks, that would mean dehydrated food for maximum duration. I would stay away from one person buying dehydrated vegetables and the other buying dehydrated fruit. Each person’s purchased stocks should complete and standalone in case one or more of the Urban Survival Group members does not make it to the rendezvous.

If I was going to put only $250 into foods stocks then I would buy inclined to spend most of it on #10 cans of dehydrated food (meat, fruits and vegetables) and the rest on rice, beans, and bullion to store in vacuumed packed bags or better yet, sealed Mylar bags with oxygen absorbers.

I hope you all realize that guns and food are great, two of your essentials needs, but preparation across the board needs to be conducted such as procurement of a wide variety of Survival Gear, Equipment and Material and set up of Bug Out Bags. You should consider purchasing some previous metals such as Gold and Silver. Silver rounds or bullion is still fairly cheap and can be purchased in small amounts as you budget allows. I think procuring Silver for Survival and an insurance currency for barter is important.

Other than the above, I can't give you some specific recommendations unless I know what Urban Survival assets (Gear, Equipment, Material and Firearms) that you already have on hand. Good luck buddy.

Reader Comment on the .45-70 Government

UrbanSurvivalSkills.com received the following comment on the post "Urban Survival Firearms - Sniper Rifle Necessity?":
....Outlander777 says "Good article. I have been checking out your site and am getting some info from you. Thanks. I would like to say at my safe spots we determined to use the Shilo Sharps in 45-70. I can hit most anything I aim at with it out to around 500 yrds. A couple of my younger family members have taken to it and can do much more justice to the gun and it responds in kind. They are a brother and sister team when it comes to that gun, always trying to out shoot each other. The boy is an ex Marine and the girl just loves guns. She has been shooting since my brother could put a rifle into her hands. We have stocked several different rounds for it and as a back up are set up to reload it and all of our other weapons. It does help that we set it up to also reload it in original black powder form also. I would not want to be on the receiving end. They have a range card set up for it out to 1200 yards. The boy says at that range if he don't hit ya in the chest, he will blow your bladder out. :-)"

UrbanMan replies: Outlander, that's what scares the hell of the Liberals and what makes this country practically invulnerable to an occupation by foreign troops,...60 million plus gun owners!

A friend of mine owns a gun store and he related to me,..this story is 12 months old,...that a older gentleman came through one day and bought up all the store's .45-70 Gov't ammunition. Over $800 worth. The older gentleman told the store clerks that he was from Wyoming and was transiting a big loop through Colorado, New Mexico, Texas, Oklahoma and Kansas in search of .45-70 ammunition. He didn't need any handgun ammunition as he believed only his .45-70 rifle. Reminds me of a saying that goes "Beware of the gent who only has one gun, as he probably knows how to use it well."

I respect the .45-70, but the round is pretty damn slow. Alot of drop at extended ranges, even with the lightweight bullets (around 305 grains). Hornady makes the Leverevolution ammunition in .45-70, which I have not tried, but I know the .30-30 load will give near .308 performance for those old deer guns.....probably greatly enhances the .45-70 also.

The great thing about shooting those old guns is the marksmanship skills one learns that is transferable to practically all long guns.

Anyway, sounds like you know what you're doing. Won't try to convince you to get something that feeds from a box magazine. Good luck to you and thanks for the comments.

Urban Survival Gear and Equipment – Firearms Upgrade

We intended this tie originally to address the common Urban and Suburban dweller who previously has not considered any preparation in anticipation of a collapse or just did not know what to do. Our test case is Jim, who efforts to prepare are articulated in this site with Survival Chronicles of Jim.

Jim is a single white collar professional and business with a child in college. Jim has not previously owned firearms nor had he considered any Urban Survival preparations until he became part of our conversations. Because of our status, we had credibility with Jim therefore Jim listened and saw value in getting somewhat prepared.

He wins on both accounts: he doesn’t feel like some far right wing militia whack job; and, he feels better knowing he has a plan and that plan is backed up with a rapidly procurement, albeit of minimum nature, of Survival Gear and Equipment including a shotgun and pistol.

First rule of a gun fight or any event where you are attacked is to have a means to defend yourself and your property. In most pre-collapse cases a pistol, even a .22 LR, and especially a 12 gauge shotgun will do nicely. However, during a collapse when you may be faced with gangs of looters and brigands, maybe even outlaw motorcycle gangs or vicious street gangs more firepower will probably be necessary.

Enter the assault rifle or carbine (Boy we hate calling it that – but in the interests of a definition it’ll do for now), or better yet, a battle rifle.

Top: M16A1, Second from Top: M16A2, Third from Top: M4 Carbine, Bottom: M16A2

An Assault rifle or carbine would be any variant of the M4/M16 family of firearms in caliber .223 Remington (or 5.56x45mm). Various makers include Bushmaster, Rock River , DPMS, Colt, Smith and Wesson, SigSauer and a host of others. Using a 20 or 30 round magazine, this firearm presents a lot of options. More options when you include multiple rounds or cartridges in various bullet weights and configurations to select for the anticipated use.



Another type of assault carbine would be the excellent Ruger Mini-14, however these are only now slightly less expensive than an M4 variant and less common. Magazines are different than the M4/M16 variants and harder to come by.

The original assault carbine is the M1 carbine (photo above) firing the fairly puny .30 caliber carbine round (110 grain bullet traveling approx 1,700 fps), which is similar to a .357 magnum (11o grain bullet at 1,400 fps) in ballistics – so the questions begs “why carry a carbine sized weapons that fires a pistol type cartridge”?

In the Battle Rifle category would be the M1 Garand (bottom) from WWII fame or even better, the civilian version of the M14 rifle (top) called the M1A1. The M1 Garand fires the .30-06 Springfield round, which is common North American hunting cartridge. The M1A1 fire the .308 Winchester (aka 7.62x51mm NATO) round which maybe more common. The M1 Garand has an internal 8 round box magazine and you load using 8 round clips. The M1A1 using a detachable 20 round box magazine similar to the magazines for the M4/M16 variants but of course not inter-changeable as the cartridges are way different.

In our view, the M4 carbine or M16 variants are the best choice for an Urban Survival Weapons upgrade. Ammunition is cheaper than the M1 Garand (.30-06) or the M1A1 (.308 Winchester ); magazines are easy and cheaper to buy; and there are much more accessories available for the M4/M16 such as fore end mounted lights, scopes, etc. The advantages of an M4 carbine over and M16 is that the M4 carbine (or it’s civilian variants) have a collapsible stock and shorter barrel (16 inches as opposed to 20 inches) making it much more handy to carry.

UrbanSurvivalSkills.com will be showcasing various accessories for the M4 carbine in upcoming posts. Stay tuned. Stay ready, Get Prepared.

Urban Survival Tool – Survival Rifle

We want to orient this site to people who are just now starting to realize they need some level of preparation in case of an incident that changes our lives drastically,…call it TEOTWAWKI (The End Of The World As We Know It) or by it’s shorter acronym, TSHTF. It would be easy to us to post unrealistic preparation measures, expensive firearms procurements, massive freeze dried food buys, etc. In fact, all of us writing these posts have all that and more, but realize the most people thinking of Survival Preparation are doing so more out of minimal insurance type of thing or just a “check the block”.

We are working with Jim, whose Survival Chronicles you read on this site. When we met Jim he didn’t own a gun let alone think about what would happen if somebody turned off the lights and the water spigot not to mention what if the trucks carrying groceries to our stores just stopped coming. Look at how far Jim has came in a minimal time at minimal expense. We realize Jim has bought a .22 handgun and a 12 gauge shotgun, but we’re not really happy with Jim putting off buying a rifle. Some of that is due to costs,…some of that may be due to a purchase of really suitable rifle such as an M-4 carbine or (our favorite) an M-1A type rifle is akin to stepping past the point of no return.

Anyway, we think we can get Jim to buy a rifle, not a battle rifle, but a survival type rifle, in .22 caliber, that would be easy for him to carry in his Survival Bug Out Bag, use to procure small game, use to practice marksmanship cheaply and be fun, as well as give him another option if pressed into a Survival Defensive mode.


Henry Repeating Arms is now manufacturing a new version of the famous U.S. Air Force AR-7, now known as the Henry U.S. Survival rifle. This is really a handy little Survival Rifle. Lightweight at 2.5 pounds, this rifle’s design allows the rifle to break down into three pieces in seconds. This enables the barrel, action and two 8-round magazines to fit inside the ABS synthetic waterproof stock in a 16 inch length. No tools are required. We think it’s a perfect design for the Bug Out Bag. Plus the gun, when folded with float. Well, Golly!

The barrel and receiver are coated in Teflon, helping greatly with bad weather resistant. A picatinny type rail on the top of the receiver makes it easy to add a scope if needed. Priced around or slightly less than $250 retail we think this is an excellent buy for a guy like Jim. We would suggest a small lightweight scope and several extra magazines.